{"id":9,"date":"2012-03-28T11:07:23","date_gmt":"2012-03-28T11:07:23","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/sonic-places.dock-berlin.de\/?p=9"},"modified":"2013-04-29T15:53:17","modified_gmt":"2013-04-29T15:53:17","slug":"test-entry","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"http:\/\/sonic-places.dock-berlin.de\/?p=9","title":{"rendered":"Interview with Prof B.Schulte-Fortkamp"},"content":{"rendered":"

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\nDr Brigitte Schulte-Fortkamp<\/a> is professor of Technical Acoustics at the Technical University, Berlin and 2011-2012 vice president of the Acoustical Society of America. She has long been an advocate for the idea of \u2018soundscape\u2019 as a way to understand our sound environment in contrast to the, until recently, more commonly held view (in official circles) that regards \u2018noise\u2019 as the only issue.<\/p>\n

The main focus of the interview is the Nauener Platz redevelopment in Wedding, Berlin, which Dr Schulte-Fortkamp headed in collaboration with the Regional Office Berlin-Mitte<\/span>. Beyond it\u2019s significance locally, it is one of the very few examples (worldwide) where soundscape ideas and attention to the acoustic environment have played a major role in planning and design. Rarer still it has actually been built and people can experience for themselves how the ideas work in practice.<\/span><\/p>\n

One of the main sonic features at Nauener Platz are the \u2018audio islands\u2019. These are benches or other seating designs where loudspeakers quietly play sounds of a shingle beach, city and forest birds into the urban environment.<\/p>\n

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PC \u2013 What is your understanding of the term \u2018Soundscape\u2019?<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n

BSF \u2013 My understanding is strictly with the definition as written in the Handbook of Acoustic Ecology (Barry Truax) in 1978. It\u2019s that a soundscape is a sonic environment as perceived and understood by people, by society and by groups. This is my definition of soundscape and why for me soundscape is everything to do with perception and not with dB (A) measurement. It is my basic understanding and also the basis for identifying research procedures.<\/p>\n

PC \u2013 What methodological consequences does this concept of soundscape have for studying and planning real spaces?<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n

BSF \u2013 Following from this definition methodologies have to concern themselves with peoples\u2019 minds. This means that what we need is information from people who are specifically concerned with the spaces\/places in question. I usually call these people \u2018the experts\u2019 or the local experts\u2019. Some years ago I called them the \u2018new experts\u2019. But the main thing is that we learn from people how they feel about and understand an area. And for planning we have to pick up their ideas and expertise in order to develop new spaces\/places.<\/p>\n

PC \u2013 How do you do that in practice?<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n

BSF \u2013Usually I have a very simple starting point. I meet with people and do soundwalks. In the soundwalk procedure I never propose where we should stop and listen. I only talk to people and say lets go though the area and stop where you think we should stand and listen to the sounds. I also make recordings and use a ranking scheme of pleasantness for the first impression.<\/p>\n

I like to ask people what is going through their heads and what for them is meaning of this special place. After that, because I\u2019m an acoustician, I go back to them and play the recordings to ask if they can go more deeply into what they have said. I also frequently use interviews and a questionnaire \u2013 not really a questionnaire, more a guideline \u2013 to talk to people in a narrative interview to learn about their experiences and their background in acoustics, a kind of acoustic biography.<\/p>\n

PC \u2013 And this is with recognised experts or the local people who you call the \u2018new experts\u2019?<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n

BSF \u2013 I call the local people experts. What I\u2019m saying is that our expertise is to achieve the right communication level with local people because we have to know to understand them. They are to me the experts. It\u2019s not the usual professional experts in community areas. They, of course, are experts in their own fields but they are never to me experts in respect of understanding local spaces and how they are used.<\/p>\n

PC \u2013Can you describe the main ideas behind the Nauener Platz design?<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n

BSF \u2013 Yes, formerly Nauener Platz was a difficult area with high crime rates and drug use. It was a dangerous area concerning social issues. The aim was to rebuild the place, which is open and can be used by anyone from the area, so that people feel safe and at home. The idea was to use the soundscape approach to get information and to get in touch with people living there, to learn about their wishes and sorrows, and about their daily routines, especially those concerning Nauener Platz itself. People of all ages and genders told us that they did go there anymore because it was dangerous for themselves and children. So they needed to regain a trust in the place. That\u2019s why we got people together, including those from Regional Office Berlin-Mitte.(who had asked us to become involved here).<\/p>\n

So we organised meetings. At the start of the project a little festival was organized through the Regional Office Berlin-Mitte to gain access to people. Among other things sounds and sound measurements were demonstrated. Sound was brought to the public\u2019s attention. Young and old and those of different ethnic backgrounds came. It was a step-by-step procedure for us to learn about their wishes. It is worth saying that it is not a rich area. Most people live in small apartments. Also these are not the best of buildings. The idea was to make Nauener Platz a kind of living room for them and that\u2019s why you must have people involved.<\/p>\n

Since the place opened things have gone very well (fingers crossed). Over the last two years nothing has been disturbed. Because the people were involved in the redevelopment they see it a little like their own living space so they take care of the area.<\/p>\n

PC \u2013 Was it all built as planned or were some things left out because they were too expensive or for other reasons.<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n

BSF \u2013 Yes some things could not be done. It\u2019s all about participation and collaboration. The landscape architect had brilliant ideas for more audio islands and I wanted this too. We wanted to have some far away from the street and some close to the street. This has been done, but only a few \u2013 3 close to Reinickendorfer Strasse and 2 near the rose garden. More were in mind but there wasn\u2019t enough money. But this was not so bad because people also wanted to have a small fountain, which was much appreciated by the children. So we had to make a choice between that or more audio islands.<\/p>\n

PC \u2013 What are your feelings about Nauener Platz now?<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n

BSF \u2013 Up to now I\u2019m quite happy. I\u2019m thinking that it went very well for different reasons. My hope is that people continue to use it. However the people originally involved will not necessarily stay there and money is also needed for repairs and maintenance. We had a re-evaluation last year, which went very well. We were able to change some sounds in the benches. I hope it will continue as it is for a while now.<\/p>\n

I also feel that many people \u2013 because we have presented the project widely \u2013 have taken this as a model. So I have a few places in Italy where the same concept is working well and if it is considered a success by Berlin city they might develop other places similarly.<\/p>\n

PC \u2013 What would you change if you were doing it for a second time? What have you learnt from the experience?<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n

BSF \u2013 I have learnt that I would like to provide more information. Not necessarily for those originally involved but for newcomers. We don\u2019t have money for new panels where you let people know what it is. It would be nice to have some information on how to use the \u2018audio islands\u2019 for example. And I would also like to have other changes.<\/p>\n

We also learnt that I would always use a similar procedure to involve people living there. I would not give up this up even though it is very time consuming. Secondly we learnt that you should have more arrangements to ensure things will continue over the following years. But for the moment it\u2019s a kind of miracle. I\u2019m happy that it\u2019s still working. Maybe too I would like to have official institutions like the kindergarten more involved. Unfortunately this time they didn\u2019t want to be.<\/p>\n

PC \u2013 Did they say why?<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n

BSF \u2013I don\u2019t know. The process had started half a year before we came in. And relations were not right. We tried to go and talk to the people but they were not interested. Probably you need a different procedure to get these kinds of institutions involved. We know from our evaluation that the kindergarten does take groups there. But they could have had more of what they needed. Maybe they also have some kind of learning to do in these processes.<\/p>\n

PC \u2013 The evaluation \u2013 was that your responsibility or was that by the city or community groups?<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n

BSF \u2013 The evaluation was done by us. It was also requested by the city but not contracted. But of course we wanted to see ourselves what the outcome was after one and a half years. It was done by two students as a masters thesis. For me it was important to learn whether the ideas worked or not.<\/p>\n

PC \u2013 How successful do you think the audio islands are? Do you like the idea of the soundscape being created through loudspeakers?<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n

BSF \u2013 Yes it would be interesting to discuss this with more people. This place is embedded between two very loud main streets. Typical measurements at the corner are 75dBAleq \u2013 very loud. It goes down to 50 or 40dBA further from the roads. But everywhere you hear traffic noise.<\/p>\n

When we asked people they said that they would like to hear birds and water. So we created these sounds and carried out a test at Nauener Platz. People chose the city birds, forest birds and the shingle beach. It\u2019s important because it is mental masking. Otherwise the soundscape would have stayed the same as it was.<\/p>\n

There is some reduction behind the gabian wall (3dB). These walls were a good idea, but the height could not be greater than 1.35 meters because of safety issues. The whole place needed to be organised so that everyone can see what is going on; that was a major message. So I think the constructed soundscape is helpful because it is used. Originally we wanted three buttons, on, off and choice of sound. But in practice there is only one sound per bench, but it is something that people still like.<\/p>\n

But the funny thing is (we haven\u2019t done any research) that real birds seem to be coming back to this place because of the bird song. It\u2019s not a typical animal communication but there appear to be more birds. So now nature is changing the soundscape there.<\/p>\n

PC \u2013 And you think that is partly to do with the recorded birds sounding there.<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n

BSF \u2013 Yes, I think so. There are no more trees than before and no obvious reasons for change otherwise. So this could be an outcome.<\/p>\n

I also ask myself that if I was there often would I want to hear these same sounds every day. But on the other hand the acoustic islands close to the street, the benches, are also designed very nicely so you don\u2019t hear the traffic so loudly.<\/p>\n

PC \u2013 My impression with the recorded sounds is that you hear the loop.<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n

BSF \u2013 Yes that\u2019s a problem. It was also my proposal to change this loop. But this was not in our hands any more. We gave those sounds to those who had responsibility for the installation. Our responsibility was for the benches and their position, but we didn\u2019t have responsibility for the installation or the cutting of the sound. One of my students (the same who did the evaluation) recorded the sounds, but the editing is such that they sound unnatural sometimes. But nevertheless it\u2019s obviously nicer for some people to hear this compared with the traffic.<\/p>\n

PC \u2013 I\u2019ve been there twice.<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n

BSF \u2013 So what was your impression?<\/p>\n

PC \u2013 Well I thought the sea actually works better than the birds because it fits in with the sound that is there. Sea and traffic are quite similar. And the birds \u2013 one of them was just too loud. It can either be on off but there\u2019s no control over the volume and so it did sound very unnatural. So I haven\u2019t made up my mind. I can\u2019t give you a straight answer.<\/p>\n

BSF \u2013At the time when we did the installation things were OK. But these are the problems that are coming up now. And I\u2019m afraid that it\u2019s true that over time it will have to be changed. We haven\u2019t been asked to put in different sounds, but maybe next time we should have a different approach to deal with this kind of issue.<\/p>\n

PC \u2013 OK thank you very much. What are you working on at the moment?<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n

BSF \u2013 At the moment among other things I\u2019m involved in a major project concerning safety in cities. For the first time we are using the soundscape approach as a methodology for researching safety in cities. The project involves several parties from the university and city management. We are doing soundwalks in all of the three cities, but this time also with official people such as regulatory authorities. It\u2019s been going on for a year and half and we will finalise it next year.<\/p>\n

Acknowledgement<\/p>\n

The project discussed above is a module of the Project \u201cNauener Platz \u2013 Remodelling for Young and Old\u201d in the framework of the research program \u201cExperimental Housing and Urban Development (ExWoSt)\u201d of the \u201cFederal Ministry of Transport, Building, and Urban Affairs (BMVBS)\u201d by the \u201cFederal Office for Building and Regional Planning (BBR)\u201d. The responsible organisation for the projectis the Regional Office Berlin-Mitte.<\/p>\n

TU Berlin 29.5.12, Peter Cusack<\/p>\n

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Dr Brigitte Schulte-Fortkamp is professor of Technical Acoustics at the Technical University, Berlin and 2011-2012 vice president of the Acoustical Society of America. She has long been an advocate for the idea of \u2018soundscape\u2019 as a way to understand our sound environment in contrast to the, until recently, more commonly held view (in official circles) […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":[],"categories":[6],"tags":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"http:\/\/sonic-places.dock-berlin.de\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/9"}],"collection":[{"href":"http:\/\/sonic-places.dock-berlin.de\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"http:\/\/sonic-places.dock-berlin.de\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/sonic-places.dock-berlin.de\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/sonic-places.dock-berlin.de\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=9"}],"version-history":[{"count":28,"href":"http:\/\/sonic-places.dock-berlin.de\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/9\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":1088,"href":"http:\/\/sonic-places.dock-berlin.de\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/9\/revisions\/1088"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"http:\/\/sonic-places.dock-berlin.de\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=9"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/sonic-places.dock-berlin.de\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=9"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/sonic-places.dock-berlin.de\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=9"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}